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Thread: Here's your Global Warming

  1. #161
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    Here's part of what I see as the problem concerning the US.

    Why We Pay Double for Solar in America (But Won’t Forever) | Institute for Local Self-Reliance

    There’s an article in the most recent issue of PHOTON describing a German family that got a 4.6 kW PV array installed and interconnected to their roof 8 days after calling a solar installer for the first time. The homeowner had a proposal from the installer within 8 hours. The installer called the utility the morning of the installation to request an interconnect that afternoon. The installer called at 10am, the utility came and installed 2 new meters and approved the interconnect at 2:37pm– the same day. The online registration of the PV system with Federal Grid agency and approval of the feed-in tariff took 5 minutes.

    I’m sure that not every project gets completed that fast in Germany, but an interconnection and permitting process that takes less than a day?! 10 times that…would still be just incredible.

    By comparison, New York City’s permitting goal under Solar America Cities was 100 days (before Solar America Cities it took 365 days).
    This does not include all the obstructions caused by various environmental groups. While I can't speak to the delays and increased cost due to the environmentalists i other states, in California and Nevada the environmentalists have become infamous for objecting to any and every attempt to build solar, geothermal, or wind power plants, as well s the electrical lines needed to distribute the power generated by these plants. In Nevada, there is a host of contradictory laws in place that seem to exist for the sole purpose of building anything which represents an alternative, clean energy. If I wanted to put up even a small wind turbine to supplement the electricity I use, I find cannot do it because of all the laws in place. One set of laws says that I can do it and even get a state subsidy to do it and the power companies are required to buy the power from me. But other laws say that I can't do it without submitting full reports of environmental impact, erecting special structures so that no animals or birds can get hurt, making sure that the turbines and lines don't cause an electromagnetic problems and a list that goes on and on. The end cost is so high I could simply pay for the electricity supplied by the local power company for the next ten years and be ahead, and that's before any savings start to kick in.

    As the old line from Pogo read, "We have met the enemy, and he is us".
    Over 60- Seen it, Done it, Can't remember it, but I miss it.
    The great economist Milton Friedman once observed, "Many people want government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.
    Remember, the government cannot give anything to anyone that they have not first taken away from someone else.
    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito - Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it:

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  2. #162
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    There are a lot of rationales put out to protect the profit centers of coal and oil. I understand that. It is rational and...tragic in the end. It's the "tragedy of the commons" specifically. So long as some can make large, ongoing profits in significant part by imposing a large portion of the actual costs onto others, like you and me, then they will. Since they can pay for 'research' and put out disinformation, they will. They will buy politicians, with contributions. They will sponsor talk shows, etc. They will put out rationalizations that people like. People like to believe what is convienient is also great, no matter if it is. Perhaps the worst part is they begin to believe their own rationales, and forget the assumptions they made, and eventually believe in their assumptions as a kind of gospel, a divine truth.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

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  3. #163
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    No matter the ideology, I have a very pragmatic view. No matter the cause, if the earth is warming, for any reason, even solar cycles, whatever, then we need to be able to what it takes to adapt, respond, and it isn't low stakes. If billions of people get hungry there will be world war. This isn't far-out speculation, but rather just learning from history and extrapolating.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

    Here's more at my blog:
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by halbhh View Post
    No matter the ideology, I have a very pragmatic view. No matter the cause, if the earth is warming, for any reason, even solar cycles, whatever, then we need to be able to what it takes to adapt, respond, and it isn't low stakes. If billions of people get hungry there will be world war. This isn't far-out speculation, but rather just learning from history and extrapolating.
    I agree that its good to do things in an environmentally sound way. Even if doing that has no effect on the warming due to its being caused by something we can't control, the end result is that we extend our limited resources over a longer period of time. An example would be my car. The EPA highway mileage is 22mpg. With a small cost of installed legal parts, I now have an overall mileage of about 25mpg and have gotten over 30mpg numerous times. That saves money in the long term, reduces pollution, and gives a few more horsepower. In a couple months, I plan to replace the throttle body which is said to raise the gas mileage some more. So for less than $800 invested, I should be averaging about 5mpg more than the EPA highway mileage. Sound good?

    When it comes to war over food, the way things are going it seems like that is inevitable. North Korea comes to mind, but there are other nations that are getting hungry as well. As long as it doesn't go nuclear, the earth will recover and cynically speaking, there will be less people to feed when its over. But if some idiot/nation pulls the nuclear trigger, there wouldn't be any recovery for a very long time and that would mean even more hunger problems. Think of Chernobyl and the area around it which will be poisoned for decades to come, and that was a simple leak, not the devastation of a lot of bombs.
    Over 60- Seen it, Done it, Can't remember it, but I miss it.
    The great economist Milton Friedman once observed, "Many people want government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.
    Remember, the government cannot give anything to anyone that they have not first taken away from someone else.
    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito - Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it:

    https://www.fuelly.com/driver/sailer...ang?fu=2315423

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailer View Post
    I agree that its good to do things in an environmentally sound way. Even if doing that has no effect on the warming due to its being caused by something we can't control, the end result is that we extend our limited resources over a longer period of time. An example would be my car. The EPA highway mileage is 22mpg. With a small cost of installed legal parts, I now have an overall mileage of about 25mpg and have gotten over 30mpg numerous times. That saves money in the long term, reduces pollution, and gives a few more horsepower. In a couple months, I plan to replace the throttle body which is said to raise the gas mileage some more. So for less than $800 invested, I should be averaging about 5mpg more than the EPA highway mileage. Sound good?

    When it comes to war over food, the way things are going it seems like that is inevitable. North Korea comes to mind, but there are other nations that are getting hungry as well. As long as it doesn't go nuclear, the earth will recover and cynically speaking, there will be less people to feed when its over. But if some idiot/nation pulls the nuclear trigger, there wouldn't be any recovery for a very long time and that would mean even more hunger problems. Think of Chernobyl and the area around it which will be poisoned for decades to come, and that was a simple leak, not the devastation of a lot of bombs.
    I bet it would go a long way towards encouraging better energy use to only add into the price of oil in the U.S. the actual costs that oil has here in the U.S., in the defense budget to protect oil shipping lanes in the Persian Gulf, the shortfall in the road funding Highway Trust Fund being paid by general revenues (or lack thereof, now), and in the true, full and complete health costs of the emissions from diesel and gasoline.

    This would raise the price of gasoline a lot, and make it cost closer to what it actually does cost already, except the cost would become more visible, and gasoline/diesel no longer subsidized by tax payers, and kids lungs, etc.

    So...I'd propose the gasoline/diesel taxes would go entirely into paying these various costs, and not be used for any other purpose.

    Now, for the political thing of various politicians and oil industry folks labeling the resulting less-subsidized price of gasoline something like a "regressive tax" or whatever, when the hidden subsidy ends....I'm all for helping out the poor. Offer income-based REBATES of the true-cost "taxes" to lower income people for 8 years (easy stuff on 1040 by just reporting mileage once/year and then an table of rates vs income). This would allow everyone time to upgrade their fuel efficiency without a sudden money-crunch (and the automakers to offer yet better choices by then, etc.).
    Last edited by halbhh; 07-17-2012 at 05:17 PM.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

    Here's more at my blog:
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  6. #166
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    Does New Tree Ring Study Put the Chill on Global Warming? - Yahoo! News

    A new analysis of 2,000 years of tree ring data has quickly made climate change deniers' list of greatest hits to the theory of manmade global warming.

    The tree rings "prove [the] climate was WARMER in Roman and Medieval times than it is now," the British newspaper the Daily Mail reported last week, "and [the] world has been cooling for 2,000 years."

    That and other articles suggest the current global warming trend is a mere blip when viewed in the context of natural temperature oscillations etched into tree rings over the past two millennia. The Star-Ledger, a New Jersey newspaper, mused that the findings lock in "one piece of an extremely complex puzzle that has been oversimplified by the Al Gores of the world."
    But it's old news that Northern Europe experienced a natural warm period 2,000 years ago and during the 11th century. Not much is known about the Roman period, but the medieval warm spell primarily resulted from a decrease in volcanic activity, Wilson said. Volcanic ash in the atmosphere tends to block the sun, decreasing Earth's surface temperature.

    The current warming, on the other hand, has nothing to do with volcanoes. "None of this changes the fact that the current warming can't be modeled based on natural forces alone," he said. "Anthropogenic [greenhouse gas] emissions are the predominant forces in the late 20th century and early 21st century period."

    That Scandinavia may have been slightly warmer in the 11th century than today also doesn't change the fact that the world, as a whole, is warmer now. "This data is spatially specific. You would expect to see this trend in northern Scandinavia, but not in the Alps," Wilson said. "Almost all models show that the current global warming is probably warmer overall than that warming."
    So various data show that the earth has been warm before, even warmer than it is now. The tales of a Northwest Passage over Canada were probably true and its evident that the earth has cooled considerably over the past 1,000 years. But is still a lot warmer now than anything we've been used to and there is a lot of human caused junk in the air. If as a world population we can cut down the junk, and that means countries like China and India doing their part, things should get better. However, if they don't get better, than there's not much we can do about it except to move farther north or south of the equator. Maybe buying a bit of land in Alaska or Canada would be like a good insurance policy?
    Over 60- Seen it, Done it, Can't remember it, but I miss it.
    The great economist Milton Friedman once observed, "Many people want government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.
    Remember, the government cannot give anything to anyone that they have not first taken away from someone else.
    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito - Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it:

    https://www.fuelly.com/driver/sailer...ang?fu=2315423

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailer View Post
    [url=http://news.yahoo.com/does-tree-ring-study-put-chill-global-warming-170718316.html]... Maybe buying a bit of land in Alaska or Canada would be like a good insurance policy?
    Read that one yesterday. You probably read all of it, but it has some more interesting parts. About buying land in case of more-rapid-than-estimated change occurs. Considering what I just read about Greenland, I'd suggest any house near the coast be well up off the water. Definitely avoid beachfront, unless you can afford to lose it.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

    Here's more at my blog:
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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by halbhh View Post
    Read that one yesterday. You probably read all of it, but it has some more interesting parts. About buying land in case of more-rapid-than-estimated change occurs. Considering what I just read about Greenland, I'd suggest any house near the coast be well up off the water. Definitely avoid beachfront, unless you can afford to lose it.
    About 5 miles inland should do. I like boats anyway, so if I got a boat the worst that would happen is that I would have to re-anchor by the new shoreline.
    Over 60- Seen it, Done it, Can't remember it, but I miss it.
    The great economist Milton Friedman once observed, "Many people want government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.
    Remember, the government cannot give anything to anyone that they have not first taken away from someone else.
    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito - Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it:

    https://www.fuelly.com/driver/sailer...ang?fu=2315423

  9. #169
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    If my tax dollars (from income taxes) are going to subsidize roads (they do, now), then I'd like them to subsidize....

    Picture 11 miles of smoothly paved bike path meandering through the countryside. Largely uninterrupted by roads or intersections, it passes fields, backyards, chirping birds, a lake, some ducks and, at every mile, an air pump. ...

    In Denmark, thanks to measures like the [bicycle] superhighway [into Copenhagen], commuters choose bicycles because they are the fastest and most convenient transportation option. “It’s not because the Danes are more environmentally friendly,” said Gil Penalosa, executive director of 8-80 Cities, a Canadian organization that works to make cities healthier. “It’s not because they eat something different at breakfast.”
    This makes sense to allow commuters from suburbs into cities a better, (sometimes faster!) way to get into the city.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/wo...hway.html?_r=1
    Last edited by halbhh; 07-19-2012 at 08:13 AM.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

    Here's more at my blog:
    http://findingourdream.blogspot.com/

  10. #170
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    Got Sailer's weather here today (or kinda), will be 81 degrees, dewpoint 61. Guess that's not quite as dry as Nevada. It's the northeast wind off Lake Michigan. Temperate 96 in Austin. We have a reprieve, at least a day or 2 (or 1.5).
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

    Here's more at my blog:
    http://findingourdream.blogspot.com/

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailer View Post
    I spend a little over $200 a month on electricity. That's for a 1680 sq ft house with R11 insulation. I also run 6 computers 24/7, so that pulls a lot of dollars worth of electricity.
    Not to mention the Mega-Joules of heat energy that they dump inside. (3.6 Mega-Joules= 1 Kilowatt-hour)


    The more you read and learn, the less your adversary will know. - Sun Tzu

  12. #172
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    In other related warming news... More Derechos

    Live: Cincinnati, Jackson in the Path of a Derecho

    Just another of natures heat engines powered by the scorching heat down the center of the country and that is currently on track for the #3 spot of hottest recorded summers behind #1 (2011) and #2 (1951).

    Summer 2012 In Running for Hottest Summer on Record

    So you see it is not just your imagination that its hotter than blazes it actually is...


    The more you read and learn, the less your adversary will know. - Sun Tzu

  13. #173
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    More:

    On a single day this month here, a US Airways regional jet became stuck in asphalt that had softened in 100-degree temperatures, and a subway train derailed after the heat stretched the track so far that it kinked — inserting a sharp angle into a stretch that was supposed to be straight. In East Texas, heat and drought have had a startling effect on the clay-rich soils under highways, which “just shrink like crazy,” leading to “horrendous cracking,” said Tom Scullion, senior research engineer with the Texas Transportation Institute at Texas A&M University. In Northeastern and Midwestern states, he said, unusually high heat is causing highway sections to expand beyond their design limits, press against each other and “pop up,” creating jarring and even hazardous speed bumps.

    Excessive warmth and dryness are threatening other parts of the grid as well. In the Chicago area, a twin-unit nuclear plant had to get special permission to keep operating this month because the pond it uses for cooling water rose to 102 degrees; its license to operate allows it to go only to 100. According to the Midwest Independent System Operator, the grid operator for the region, a different power plant had had to shut because the body of water from which it draws its cooling water had dropped so low that the intake pipe became high and dry; another had to cut back generation because cooling water was too warm.

    The frequency of extreme weather is up over the past few years, and people who deal with infrastructure expect that to continue. Leading climate models suggest that weather-sensitive parts of the infrastructure will be seeing many more extreme episodes, along with shifts in weather patterns and rising maximum (and minimum) temperatures.

    “We’ve got the ‘storm of the century’ every year now,” said Bill Gausman, a senior vice president and a 38-year veteran at the Potomac Electric Power Company, which took eight days to recover from the June 29 “derecho” storm that raced from the Midwest to the Eastern Seaboard and knocked out power for 4.3 million people in 10 states and the District of Columbia.

    In general, nobody in charge of anything made of steel and concrete can plan based on past trends, said Vicki Arroyo...
    This has drastic implications. What if many major US highways and rail corridors buckled simultaneously in a big heat wave....?
    Last edited by halbhh; 07-25-2012 at 08:39 PM.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

    Here's more at my blog:
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  14. #174
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    Rail and pavement is relatively easy to fix in the short term so the impact would be no worse than a blizzard in winter that equally would shut down transport for several days.

    The biggest issue is not really the temperatures but the somewhat related drought that now covers almost 64% of the lower 48.

    Soybeans Next Casualty of 2012 Drought

    It's not really the temperatures but the fact that most of the Midwest is being transformed into Nevada instead of Florida. I recall painting the outside of my new house in Minnesota at 104F during the drought back in 1989 which was equally severe but nowhere near as widespread. I wasn't able to plant anything when we moved in in June as not even the weeds would grow in the dirt in my front yard.

    Oh and by the way when the "experts" tell you your grass will go dormant from lack of water what they really meant is that your grass will basically pass out before it dies out completely. We had more than 50% of the grass that died off completely with those that had watered the longest before the bans set in having the highest survival rates and those that didn't water at all had no chance and had to put in new lawns in 1990.


    The more you read and learn, the less your adversary will know. - Sun Tzu

  15. #175
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    mmmm So long as cargo and traffic can be effectively detoured, a lot of problems are just work. But if the problem starts hitting *all* the roads in a large area (hundreds of miles) then you'd have an entirely different situation (than a blizzard, in which trucks, etc., can move in a day or two).

    Interesting what you point out about lawns, as we had to decide whether to put in the extra $50 a month or so I takes to keep the grass alive.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

    Here's more at my blog:
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  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by halbhh View Post
    Interesting what you point out about lawns, as we had to decide whether to put in the extra $50 a month or so I takes to keep the grass alive.
    A common solution to the watering problem in Nevada is to water every third day, but water an extra 15 minutes so that the water penetrates farther, This encourages the roots to grow longer and keep the plant alive and ready for a quicker recovery when rain finally does arrive.
    Over 60- Seen it, Done it, Can't remember it, but I miss it.
    The great economist Milton Friedman once observed, "Many people want government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.
    Remember, the government cannot give anything to anyone that they have not first taken away from someone else.
    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito - Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it:

    https://www.fuelly.com/driver/sailer...ang?fu=2315423

  17. #177
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    yeah, I learned some about that in an Austin suburb, when water restrictions set watering to twice/week only. Here I'm going about every 4 days when there's no rain. It's not green, not entirely yellow, sorta in-between. In the last 10 days though about 3 good rains, and it's all green now, so that worked pretty well....
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

    Here's more at my blog:
    http://findingourdream.blogspot.com/

  18. #178
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    Here's a new bit about a new effect of global warming: it may give you skin cancer unless you're careful.

    Storms Threaten Ozone Layer Over U.S., Study Says

    Strong summer thunderstorms that pump water high into the upper atmosphere pose a threat to the protective ozone layer over the United States, researchers said on Thursday, drawing one of the first links between climate change and ozone loss over populated areas.

    In a study published online by the journal Science, Harvard University scientists reported that some storms send water vapor miles into the stratosphere — which is normally drier than a desert — and showed how such events could rapidly set off ozone-destroying reactions with chemicals that remain in the atmosphere from CFCs, refrigerant gases that are now banned.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

    Here's more at my blog:
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  19. #179
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  20. #180
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    Basically, the **** is hitting the fan.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Emerson
    On Earth, what goes up tends to come down.

    Here's more at my blog:
    http://findingourdream.blogspot.com/

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