Should we have an auto bailout?

[BaldEagle]

Originally Posted by brentpresley

Seriously, I'm about to go a bit off topic to vent here.


I HATE unions. HATE. Unions served a VALID purpose decades ago to better the working conditions of employees. But now they just hamper the betterment of the individual worker. How is that, do you ask?

Simple.

There is no justifiable reason that a person w/ a high-school education should be making MORE per hour than my wife, who graduated from Yale and subsequently did post-graduate training to become a Veterinarian.

By "rewarding" people w/ poor educational performance with well-paying jobs, we send a CLEAR message to their kids: It's OK to do poor in school, because it really doesn't matter. You will still get a good paying job.

But since Daddy makes $70+ including benefits by being on an assembly line with just a HS education, there is ZERO incentive.

If the parents of those kids, however, had difficulty getting well-paying jobs, they would push their kids to do well in school and go to college. Overall, bettering their family's position. (we won't get into the discussion of the educational system, that is for another time)


//Steps off soapbox and prepares to be stoned//

Off topic? I would say not as the principle reason we are talking about a bailout of the automakers in the first place is precisely the UAW making $70+/hour while the foreign manufacturers non-union plants pay almost half that and yet the workers take home nearly the same $$$. How can that be ??? It's called the "Labor Pool" when the big three replace workers with machinery (it's called automation) the worker isn't gone they join the "labor pool". When they close down factories I bet you thought the workers got laid off.... well no they actually join the labor pool.

Here is an example of the stupidity....
STLtoday.com - 02/09/2008 - Ford seeks to shed local former plant workers

Ford Uncertain When Labor Cost-Savings to Kick In

New workers get $14.20 and older workers get $30+ now talk about f'n the new guy's over.

Unions only serve to protect the incompetent and lazy. There is no possibility of being rewarded for good performance nor is there any punishment for poor performance. One of the old guys in our union shop once told me something almost 30 years ago when I had just started as an engineer that sums up the whole issue with unions. He said "Never sh1t on your own time, and never sweat on company time" and now today it pretty well sums up the whole problem with unions.

As a little example "How many union guys does it take to put a bolt in?"

A crane operator to move the part to the machine
A set-up man to set up the part in the machine
A Tool crib operator to check out drill and tap
A Machine operator to drill and tap the hole
A crane operator to move the part out of the machine
The Inspector to check the thread
A Tool crib operator to check out torque wrench
A Stores Clerk to check out a bolt
A Millwright to insert the bolt and tighten
The Inspector to verify bolt torque and mark the fastener

Well apparently it takes 10 union guys to put in a bolt...

[Sailer]

Originally Posted by brentpresley

Seriously, I'm about to go a bit off topic to vent here.


I HATE unions. HATE. Unions served a VALID purpose decades ago to better the working conditions of employees. But now they just hamper the betterment of the individual worker. How is that, do you ask?

Simple.

There is no justifiable reason that a person w/ a high-school education should be making MORE per hour than my wife, who graduated from Yale and subsequently did post-graduate training to become a Veterinarian.

By "rewarding" people w/ poor educational performance with well-paying jobs, we send a CLEAR message to their kids: It's OK to do poor in school, because it really doesn't matter. You will still get a good paying job.

But since Daddy makes $70+ including benefits by being on an assembly line with just a HS education, there is ZERO incentive.

If the parents of those kids, however, had difficulty getting well-paying jobs, they would push their kids to do well in school and go to college. Overall, bettering their family's position. (we won't get into the discussion of the educational system, that is for another time)


//Steps off soapbox and prepares to be stoned//

Off topic? Maybe a bit so, but I agree with you. My daughter-in-law recently got her doctorate in heart research. Sounds like an important career, and she's written a number of papers that were in JAMA, etc. But what did she get for a job offer? Try $36,000. Yes, that's right, $36,000 for doing work that may save a lot of people's lives. Sure, she'll probably get some raises in the future, but what's the payback for 10 years of college and countless hours spent in labs? At the same time, the HS dropout who is in the UAW can be paid $140,000 for doing work that a chimpanzee could honestly do, and the chimp might do it better.

Our country and its political/social system has a totally lop-sided view of what's important and what isn't. The guy who picks you up in an ambulance, saves your life and carries to a hospital gets Burger King wages, while a sports star who does nothing of social value gets millions. In a way, I suppose it deserves all that it will get. For all the problems that I saw in China, I'd say that country had a better perspective of real value in life.

As for getting stoned, you'll have to do that on your own time. The office has a "No smoking" policy.

[Gneisenau]

Those who reject either a package or transfer will go on unpaid leave effective March 1. They'll stay on unpaid leave for at least 18 months before being terminated by the company. During that time, they may have a chance to transfer to another plant.


The options don't sit well with local workers. Many stayed in GEN Pool in hopes of earning a full pension

Dear God!!, What? You expect me to work for my money???

That's the perfect mark of an employee that deserves to be tossed out into the street to forage from dumpsters.

[BaldEagle]

Bankruptcy stigma looms large in Detroit - MarketWatch

Do we see a Chapter 11.....

[SuperFly03]

Originally Posted by brentpresley

//Steps off soapbox and prepares to be stoned//

*SF stones Brent*

[Simul4ti0n]

It seems to be that every financial guru is saying that the Unions have to go.

[Gneisenau]

Originally Posted by Simul4ti0n

It seems to be that every financial guru is saying that the Unions have to go.

Which just proves that congress will step in and save them.

[BaldEagle]

Originally Posted by Gneisenau

Which just proves that congress will step in and save them.

Oh it's a done deal they are just canvassing to find out which cuts of pork need to be in a bill to get it signed... You can't just slap together some kind of bill and pass it without some ammendments.

For some of those outgoing congressmen headed for civilian jobs I see some sides of pork directed to those jobs being slipped into the final bail-out bill to get it passed in a "bipartisan fashion"...

Pelosi hopeful Big Three can show roadmap to 'viability' - MarketWatch

Pelosi, D-Calif., said she and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., sent a letter to the chief executives of the Big Three that lays out what the lawmakers mean by "viability" for their firms and accountability to taxpayers.
Pelosi also rejected Chapter 11 bankruptcy as an alternative for the Big Three.

"I just think that would be digging a hole far too deep," she said, adding that such a scenario would prove devastating for workers, the economy and the U.S. manufacturing base.

Should have bought GM instead of F for a bigger pop... Thats what I get for being cautious on a sure bet.

[BaldEagle]

GM, Ford rally as analyst says bailouts more likely - MarketWatch

Sailer, You should have went big. ($$$$$$1.89 (+$13K) last I looked )

General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. posted double-digit gains early Wednesday after Deutsche Bank analyst Rod Lache said the scales are tipping in favor of a federal bailout for the ailing Detroit automakers. He said he expects executives to come to Washington next week with aggressive plans to revamp the business, adding that the recent bailout of Citigroup has also helped their cause.

[Gneisenau]

I read where they were talking about all the execs, union reps, and a bunch of the workers caravaning to DC to beg for money. I guess they couldn't find enough private jets to take them all.

[BaldEagle]

Originally Posted by Gneisenau

I read where they were talking about all the execs, union reps, and a bunch of the workers caravaning to DC to beg for money. I guess they couldn't find enough private jets to take them all.

I sincerely doubt you'll see that as it would take all day just to drive from Detriot to DC. We will probably see them at least show up in one private jet or possibly even on commercial flights next week.

[Sailer]

Originally Posted by BaldEagle

GM, Ford rally as analyst says bailouts more likely - MarketWatch

Sailer, You should have went big. ($$$$$$1.89 (+$13K) last I looked )

I know, I know. Its just that I don't have much cash available at the moment. Nothing like a trip to China, helping the kid move, doing some house repairs ($11,000 worth) and a few other things to take down the cash position.

Thinking about selling today, as you noted above, for some quick money and then maybe buying in next week. If the news continues to be bad in other areas, I'd expect that Ford will drop back a bit, allowing me to get back in and buy more shares on the next pop, for more profit.

[TechnologyCoordinator]

Now Congress is bailing out Citigroup. While I don't like the auto bailout, it is funny to see all the financial jerks get bailed out with not if ands or buts, but manufacturing has to fly to DC and beg on their hands and knees for three days.

[BaldEagle]

Originally Posted by Sailer

I know, I know. Its just that I don't have much cash available at the moment. Nothing like a trip to China, helping the kid move, doing some house repairs ($11,000 worth) and a few other things to take down the cash position.

Thinking about selling today, as you noted above, for some quick money and then maybe buying in next week. If the news continues to be bad in other areas, I'd expect that Ford will drop back a bit, allowing me to get back in and buy more shares on the next pop, for more profit.

I already cashed around 1:00 after we topped out at $2.22.

I sold out at $2.18 as I fully expect to see a late nose dive today as people beat feet out of the market for the long holiday weekend (I know the market is open Friday but it's a short session and more of a pseudo trading day, mostly just hard core traders in action).

I may go back in come Monday should they hammer it down or just take my 75% gain ($18K) and be satisfied with my own homemade bail out...


And for more fun:
Cerberus claims it was misled in deal for Chrysler: Financial News - Yahoo! Finance

The statement said Cerberus is making demands of Daimler that exceed the value of the private equity firm's investment in Chrysler.

Cerberus likely is laying the groundwork for the lawsuit or arbitration claim over the deal, said Peter Henning, a former Securities and Exchange Commission attorney who teaches at Wayne State University Law School in Detroit.

"That's indicating that Cerberus believes it was misled before the closing, that it received either faulty information, or even worse, Daimler sought to mislead them," Henning said.

Hmmm..... Go short on Daimler????