Arctic, 90 Billion barrels of oil?

[Gneisenau]

The need for more refineries is debatable. On a seasonal basis government requirements for reformulated gasolines (which are all different) do create shortages but sufficent capacity exists to meet current needs.

.....

I think we need more refineries. Our present capacity is enought to meet present demand, but that doesn't include unforseeables. Unrequested plant outages can wreak havoc on supply, and the fact that a lot of our capacity is in southern coastal states which makes them targets for hurricains doesn't help any. Even planned outages can wreak havoc when considered along side unplanned ones. Planned outages are planned years in advance and difficult and costly to stop one the plans are put in place. They also are usually scheduled yearly or every other year for a refinery. Turn arounds can take anywhere from 2 weeks to months depending on what is planned. That's really a lot of down time when you think about it and that's when it's planned. Unplanned ones usually go from a min of week, (If it was a minor problem that brought down the refinery) to months if the problem was severe like an explosion.

[Gneisenau]

There are ways man...Such as the hybrid Electric/Gasoline powered vehicles. Battery powered at first, once depleted, switches to gasoline. But we don't even have to use gasoline, we could use a Ethanol 85, or other alternative fuels besides gasoline. Most people going to work won't be driving large distances. So realistically atm, we'd be looking at 40 miles on a electric based hybrid, with that mileage improving down the road as battery technologies improve. That would mark a HUGE impact on our global emissions from vehicles, and solar/wind/nuclear can cut our reliance on oil and make us energy independent. To charge, just plug them into a normal socket. We could use Nuclear as a means to offset all of this, as well as solar/wind...Even the possibility of mounting 2-3 solar panels on a roof of a car can help in longevity in mileage with electric based vehicles. The problem lies in mass energy storage...

DailyTech - Bright Ideas Fuel Grid Storage Technology Taking Off

Now this isn't a solution right off the bat, I'm just linking it as a means to state that creativity can breed off anything...It will just take some time till we have a technology for energy storage...and once it is acquired, we have no reason not to go fully 100% eco friendly in terms of power generation for our vehicles and electric use.

There are ways of getting on energy independence, but it takes thought and creativity...Just saying it isn't possible won't get us far. Now I do agree the favor of such a move is stacked against us, but this is America...Anything is possible if we put our minds to it.

I'm not saying it's not possible. I know it is possible. What is not possible is doing it tomorrow or probably even in a decade. I just don't think it would responsible to decide we weren't going to tap new oil because one day in the future we won't need it any longer. If we knew when and knew it was close and the present sources would get us there, then that's one thing.
Even if someone developed a new car that was cost effictive tomorrow that didn't even use gasoline, it would take years to get it on the streets, and then it would take many more years to replace all the existing cars with that new design. I say go ahead and do it, but realize we have to support people for decades to come using their cars that are on the road today. Look how old some cars are that are on the road today.

[verndewd]

That oil wasnt just found, its been known about for decades. I can show you conspiracy seminars from the 80's to prove it. Its been known about since the late 70's when there was another gas issue.

People believe the murdoch rockerfeller media wayy to much.

I wonder how many cards these power mad elite fawkers will lay down that will continue to validate the hard work of decent people ,patriots to the constitution ; who have been telling people for a hundred years or better what is really going on.

There is more to this oil news as well. Ill just wait till the marionette masters play their cards for the masses to gain their undying loyalty.

[Kamrooz]

I'm not saying it's not possible. I know it is possible. What is not possible is doing it tomorrow or probably even in a decade. I just don't think it would responsible to decide we weren't going to tap new oil because one day in the future we won't need it any longer. If we knew when and knew it was close and the present sources would get us there, then that's one thing.
Even if someone developed a new car that was cost effictive tomorrow that didn't even use gasoline, it would take years to get it on the streets, and then it would take many more years to replace all the existing cars with that new design. I say go ahead and do it, but realize we have to support people for decades to come using their cars that are on the road today. Look how old some cars are that are on the road today.

I agree with you on that...It would be difficult but possible. I didn't intend for it to sound like that I was instigating you didn't believe it wasn't possible...Just the ideal that even if you do support the cause and that idea crawls through your subconscious, it does hurt the effort.

But I do agree, In regards to the battery topic I was bringing up before, we all have power outlets...If we took an approach to ensure all new vehicles supported battery technology in a hybrid fashion, it would set the trend to retire the older vehicles as time went by....There are also conversion kits that can be had for around 200-400 dollars to transfer current engines to a green ethanol based fuel....But let me state ethanol isn't the greatest solution considering what it is doing to our food prices coupled with the high costs of oil/gasoline....Also the fact that sugar based ethanol provides 7x the power of corn, and the fact that it takes a lot of energy to make corn ethanol doesn't help either. It's a tough situation I agree, but the possibilities are there if we put our minds to it.

Of course, gasoline will not be vanishing anytime soon, too many cars on the road. But switching to electric hybrids in all new productions will have a huge cut in global emissions since most people don't commute long distances to work anyways. E85 can help for the 2nd powered source, or gasoline as is since it would take a long time to adopt. Synthetic fuels are under research using microbial methods..There are lots of options..But as stated before, I agree we are jumping into things a bit fast...These technologies will help WONDERS when they are developed within the decade. But jumping into something too fast can hurt us as well, as I do agree with your points.

But there are transitions we can make today that would help transfer the reigns to these newer green technologies. Personally..I believe the battery hybrid idea would be the best route at first, couple that with solar, wind, and/or nuclear to offset the electricity needs, and we cut a huge chunk of our carbon emissions. What would be incredibly well constructed, would be a hybrid Electric/Hydrogen fuel vehicle. There have been research and actual progress in hydrogen producing stations that are placed within a home. Such as this..

Company Unveils Home-Based Hydrogen Refueling Station : Gas 2.0

Although the output is relatively low for 25 miles worth of hydrogen...But it would 100% cut independence off gas. Couple this with new vehicles purchased and you have a home based source of energy for your vehicle. Although a DRASTIC hit to the gasoline industry...gasoline stations would have to convert half their pumps, or become hydrogen distributors as older gasoline vehicles roll off the streets with time. But honestly. This is an issue in itself though as MASS hydrogen development for for large quantities of vehicles becomes an issue. The best bet would be safe forms of fuel that pump in the same method as gasoline, such as synthetic fuels...We wouldn't have to change our infrastructure at all considering it could be pumped in the same method as our current gasoline stations...But emissions is still an issue, depending on how/what the synthetic fuel is being made of.

Tough topic though, all technologies in their infancy, I do agree with you on the decade or so before it becomes widely feasible...But if we at least start off by going hybrid electric, with an implementation of solar/wind/nuclear in our power arsenal...It will start everything off. One fact though is, a portion of Americans will be REALLY ticked off if we go all electric, hydrogen, or other similar green fuels...Let's face it, we're in America...And guys love their horsepower and gas guzzling/roaring engines....lol.

[Ches111]

GNE,

My point was there are technologies that can make an immediate impact to our usage.

But to truly fix the issue there is going to have to be a war fought on ALL fronts, wind, solar, coal, oil, natural gas, hydrogen, some new tech not yet thought of, ...

This is why I do nt mind the off-shore drilling as long as it is responsible. We will HAVE TO continue on our current path for some time (as stated) but I laugh at the folks who think that there is an overnight solution.

I really laugh at the media who SPIN the "we won't see a result from this for 8 - 10 years". So you are saying that this is a medium to long term methodology and you are not willing to wait .

So the artificial taxes on big oil are a now thing right? It will make a huge difference in the short term right?

I like the ostrich approach being served up by the media.. Stick your head in the sand do nothing (cause it may tick other special interest groups off) and hope it goes away. Great approach!!

[Gneisenau]

GNE,

My point was there are technologies that can make an immediate impact to our usage.

But to truly fix the issue there is going to have to be a war fought on ALL fronts, wind, solar, coal, oil, natural gas, hydrogen, some new tech not yet thought of, ...

This is why I do nt mind the off-shore drilling as long as it is responsible. We will HAVE TO continue on our current path for some time (as stated) but I laugh at the folks who think that there is an overnight solution.

I really laugh at the media who SPIN the "we won't see a result from this for 8 - 10 years". So you are saying that this is a medium to long term methodology and you are not willing to wait .

So the artificial taxes on big oil are a now thing right? It will make a huge difference in the short term right?

I like the ostrich approach being served up by the media.. Stick your head in the sand do nothing (cause it may tick other special interest groups off) and hope it goes away. Great approach!!

OK, so we are thinking alike. Drill for oil now, invest in new tech, and sometime later it all works out. We have new and better power sources, and we no longer spew dead dinosaurs out our tail pipes. It's a win/win.

I guess I find it irritating that somehow our government feels it can develop this plan themselves. Why they can't involve the businesses that know what they are doing is beyond me. Each side has it's bias. That's why you get everyone together to make a good plan. A plan solely from one side is doomed to screw us all.

[tool_462]

I've just been holding back my dark matter reactor until the next presidential campaign is over. Don't want Bush to have access to the technology I have created.

[prozac26]

Look alternative energy production is at least 10 years off, if we are seriously lucky and put some money into it.

People will say that in ten years, and ten years after that. If we keep saying this, "alternatives" will never come.

[Kamrooz]

People will say that in ten years, and ten years after that. If we keep saying this, "alternatives" will never come.

Indeed, procrastinating doesn't help. We need to do what we can do now, solar, wind, and nuclear plants....Hybrid electric vehicles will offer the least amount of effort in kick starting this change on the automotive side imo.

[Gneisenau]

I've just been holding back my dark matter reactor until the next presidential campaign is over. Don't want Bush to have access to the technology I have created.

Bah, Darkmatter reactor. Wait until the world beholds my zero point module.

[Gneisenau]

Indeed, procrastinating doesn't help. We need to do what we can do now, solar, wind, and nuclear plants....Hybrid electric vehicles will offer the least amount of effort in kick starting this change on the automotive side imo.

I gotta say I have my doubts about hybrids. The batteries just generate an awful lot of pollution. Both at manufacture and end of life. Even if we fixed the end of life part through recycling, the manufacturing part is a mother.
I really would like to see more hydrogen powered cars myself. But, hybrids will probably have to come first. We'll just have to deal with the clean-up.

[Kamrooz]

I gotta say I have my doubts about hybrids. The batteries just generate an awful lot of pollution. Both at manufacture and end of life. Even if we fixed the end of life part through recycling, the manufacturing part is a mother.
I really would like to see more hydrogen powered cars myself. But, hybrids will probably have to come first. We'll just have to deal with the clean-up.

Hydrogen would be nice, but batteries atm seem the most logical considering our situation. Already built upon a infrastructure we have, just charge it up when your home...Compared to creating more hydrogen stations, or the need to bundle home based hydrogen production equipment into the costs of buying a new car. Energy consumption will rise obviously, solar, wind, and nuclear can offset that in a cleaner capacity.

Of all the choices, battery hybrids would have the quickest, and cost affective approach to cleaning up our oil addiction and c02 emissions in a quick manner. Until technologies improve in other fields to take over...All technologies have a weakness, but atm...It's pretty much our only choice...The GM Volt imo has the best idea for now, Hybrid electric, and the choice of E85/Bio-diesel or gasoline.....The best choice considering the current standing in our power sources and feasible options for a quick start up. Unless you own a restaurant and make french fries or other fried related foods, then just take that oil and filter it, convert your car to run off vegetable oil, and boom..free fuel ^_^.

[SuperFly03]

A few points:

1) You aren't going to get the average person into a car that runs on pure electric

What happens when you run out?

2) There is no good alternative for cars now nor in the foreseeable future.

Oil is what it is, cheap, convenient, plentiful (for now).

All this green crap really bugs me. Not because it is inherently evil but because of all the politics and agendas people have.

Yeah it may be nice to reduce our power usage or carbon footprint but if it isn't economical it isn't going to work. I'm not going to go out of my way to pay more for a car because it uses less gas because I'm going to get two things: less power and a much larger bill.

People tend to blow this out of proportion, I think.

Until they get me everything I can currently get and reduce the premium... I'll stick to my gas guzzling ways.

[BaldEagle]

I gotta say I have my doubts about hybrids. The batteries just generate an awful lot of pollution. Both at manufacture and end of life. Even if we fixed the end of life part through recycling, the manufacturing part is a mother.
I really would like to see more hydrogen powered cars myself. But, hybrids will probably have to come first. We'll just have to deal with the clean-up.

Hydrogen isn't ever going to make it as a viable alternative. Moving shipping and storage of the massive amounts of hydrogen needed for a Hydrogen powered car infrastructure entails considerable risk. It's only a matter of time before a hydrogen accident occurs. Split open a 25,000 gallon rail car to mix directly with air and you'll have a new appreciation for the BIG BANG theory. You though the Ford Pinto went up in flames fast with a rear end collision then just rupture that hydrogen tank.

Hybrids are the technology on the way to total battery power. When they get to the point they can charging a battery powered car to go 400 miles in 10 minutes it's a done deal game over for gasoline. I don't expect it to happen for 20-30 years as it's going to be a new battery technology coupled with ultracapacitors to provide better energy recovery and fast recharge rates.

[Ches111]

My perpetual motion engine will revolutionize the world!!

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

[Ches111]

I hear Seiko is working on upsizing its kinetic line of energy storage too.

You just have to shake your car to get it to run.. Then all you have to do is hit every pothole, speedbump, and car in your way to keep it running!!

You could also take your wife/significant other to the garage every time you feel the need.

This will of course cause a population explosion and therefore will be very circular cause you got to shake your car more often when trying to carry that many kids.

Kinda shoots that idea down..

[Kamrooz]

A few points:

1) You aren't going to get the average person into a car that runs on pure electric

What happens when you run out?

I already stated how, Hybrid vehicles...Like the chevy volts design. Runs purely on electric for 40 or so miles, and has either a gasoline, or e85/biodiesel engine as well once the battery is depleted. You just charge up the electric battery via outlet. BTW, it's not a common combustible engine, but a generator that uses the gasoline or e85/bio-diesel to keep the batter charged...

2) There is no good alternative for cars now nor in the foreseeable future.

If you ask me, the Chevy Volt is a great concept that will work in the foreseeable future. It uses gasoline just as now, so it won't need major infrastructural changes quickly, or for those who want to be even more environmentally friendly, use e85/bio-diesel. This would be a great way to kick start the green friendly revolution. Compared to spending billions on oil that will just be depleted, instead, the first 40-50 miles is powered by a purely electric design that is rechargeable from your common house outlet. Makes a lot of sense imo.

Oil is what it is, cheap, convenient, plentiful (for now).

All this green crap really bugs me. Not because it is inherently evil but because of all the politics and agendas people have.

Yeah it may be nice to reduce our power usage or carbon footprint but if it isn't economical it isn't going to work. I'm not going to go out of my way to pay more for a car because it uses less gas because I'm going to get two things: less power and a much larger bill.

People tend to blow this out of proportion, I think.

Until they get me everything I can currently get and reduce the premium... I'll stick to my gas guzzling ways.

Oil isn't that cheap now-a-days unfortunately. Over 4 dollars a gallon on gas ain't helping at all. If we keep avoiding green technologies, we're not going to leave behind much for our children and grandchildren...Best to start now, if we keep pushing it off it will never happen. We spend so much on oil it's sickening =(....All that money leaving the states into foreign countries, all the oil we drill anyways will have to be put on market, and there's nothing stopping china or other developing industrial nations from just buying them all up with china and india on the rise.

We need true energy dependence, in the long run, it will also create hundreds of thousands if not millions of jobs in the solar/wind plant development. All signs point that going this route is in the best interests of the nation, maybe not the oil industry that loses out...But we need to look at the bigger picture of our nation, and not the dowfall of oil companies, that will have to end up switching over their funding to more green facilities/research, or die out...

Why spend billions of dollars into drillable oil?..That will deplete once used? Compared to building solar and wind plants that will offer free energy that just requires upkeep that creates maintenance jobs. The smarter route imo...But technology in terms of energy storage does need to improve, and research is already under way with concepts brewing such as the one I linked prior.

I honestly don't think it's being blown out of proportion once you considered all the benefits and negatives...It's a must for our nation to be energy independent.

[Kamrooz]

It takes more power to create that stuff than it produces when you burn it. A net energy negative. Not environmentally friendly. Plus ethanol reduces fuel mileage, so you have to burn even more of it to go the same distance.

Of course, but the fact that we are using Corn ethanol is also part of the problem, sugar would give 7x the power. But it wouldn't be appropriate to switch our farmlands production to sugar, we have no choice really but to stay with corn....But in terms of global friendliness, the production of ethanol is indeed not a good thing in terms of co2 output. But Gasoline is worse considering the need for crude oil and funding foreign nations and its co2 emissions. Ethanol might product co2, but it's mostly due to the creation process...If green technologies were implored in the creation, it would be a dif story...Green tractors running on electric, or ethanol. Solar/wind powered plants to avoid coal...etc. One can't claim to be environmentally friendly when all the tools you use to make the stuff adds to the CO2 emissions...

As time passes on though, synthetic fuels look to be a likely source if it can be mass produced, compared to the farmlands required to create ethanol, it would be a good alternative. It also won't require major infrastructure changes as I stated prior. Breakthroughs are being made in microbial synthetic fuel and other fields, will have to wait and see how it turns out and how much can be produced with time.

But going pure hybrid electric, and a second source such as gasoline or e85/ethanol would be the best route imo...To jump start this needed change in energy independence for the nation.

[Ches111]

Kam,

I seriously think that there are a combo of things that "COULD" help..

Hybrids are only a start and technically are almost a wash at this time based upon the manufacturing processes used.

The gain in mileage is minimal in comparison to its "overall" carbon and pollution footprint.

Combining hybrid tech along with reducing significantly the weight of a vehicle would be the most economical as long as you again do not wash the whole thing during the manufacturing of the device.

I think we have tech to easily reduce the weight of a vehicle.. We already have demonstrated the capability to extract HUGE power from smaller/smallish engines. We are just placing them into LARGER vehicles and therefore we get less production out of them.

Look at my truck for example.. I have a HUGE 6.0L V8 called the Vortec Max. As well as being a large engine it also moves my large truck (crew cab) out quickly all along doing it at ~18-20MPG. It has AFM or Active Fuel Management which disables 4 cylinders while in certain cruising situations.

Now ~18 - 20MPG may not sound like much. However, many vehicles that size just recently were lucky to get 14MPG.

You take another 500 - 1000 pounds of weight out of my vehicle and I think you could get ~22 - 24 MPG. Now translate that to smaller/smallish vehicles with similar % of weight savings. This could translate into a large reduction of usage across the board. Since MPG/energy used is really a simplified equation. Mass at rest, acceleration of that Mass, and energy used to keep that mass at a given speed.

[Kamrooz]

Chess11,

Weight is indeed a factor that can help drastically. I agree with you on this wholeheartedly. We can save a LOT of fuel and lower our carbon footprint by making our vehicles lighter and improving on MPG techniques/technologies. The way your phrased your opinion on hybrids seemed to be based on current hybrid technology in the prius, honda hybrid, and other vehicles? Just want to make sure and clarify which you are talking about...Because the Hybrid I am speaking in regards to is more a long the lines of the Chevy Volt, a electric vehicle, first 40 miles is based on pure electricity, afterward powered by gas as a generator to keep the batteries charged and the car running.

I do agree with you though, there are many techniques that can be combined to help with out addiction to oil, weight and MPG improvements are indeed one, but I believe heading more a long the lines of a Chevy Volt concept for new vehicles to cut our dependence on foreign oil.