Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Holy Amnesia - herem vs. jihad - WARNING: Hot Religion Topic; enter @ your own Risk

  1. #1
    MoneyGuyBK's Avatar
    MoneyGuyBK is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Team_XPS > Beautiful Orange County; Southern California, USA; Mother Earth, Milky Way, God's Palace
    Posts
    812

    Exclamation Holy Amnesia - herem vs. jihad - WARNING: Hot Religion Topic; enter @ your own Risk

    'Jesus Wars' by Philip Jenkins

    Jenkins, author of Jesus Wars, says that violence in the Quran is largely a defense against attack.

    "Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says. "What happens in all religions as they grow and mature and expand, they go through a process of forgetting of the original violence, and I call this a process of holy amnesia,"

    Article here:
    Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?

    Jihad
    In preparation for the suicide attack, their handlers had told them to meditate on two chapters of the Quran in which God tells Muslims to "cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers."
    "Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them," Allah instructs the Prophet Muhammad (Quran, 9:5). He continues: "Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites! ... Hell shall be their home, an evil fate."
    When Osama bin Laden declared war on the West in 1996, he cited the Quran's command to "strike off" the heads of unbelievers. More recently, U.S. Army Maj. Nidal Hasan lectured his colleagues about jihad, or "holy war," and the Quran's exhortation to fight unbelievers and bring them low. Hasan is accused of killing 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas, last year.
    Given this violent legacy, religion historian Philip Jenkins decided to compare the brutality quotient of the Quran and the Bible.

    Herem
    "By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide."
    It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."
    When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom.
    "In other words," Jenkins says, "Saul has committed a dreadful sin by failing to complete genocide. And that passage echoes through Christian history. It is often used, for example, in American stories of the confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but you are violating God's law if you do not."
    Jenkins notes that the history of Christianity is strewn with herem. During the Crusades in the Middle Ages, the Catholic popes declared the Muslims Amalekites. In the great religious wars in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries, Protestants and Catholics each believed the other side were the Amalekites and should be utterly destroyed.

    There's already lots more discussion going on the web, here are the previous week's links:
    Google











    Peace
    We Are Looking for a Few Good Folders

    T.E.A.M. “Together Everyone Accomplishes Miracles!” ....... God Bless All


  2. #2
    beerandcandy's Avatar
    beerandcandy is offline Uber Member 100,000 Points
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    foresthill, CA
    Posts
    3,858
    Herem
    this is jewish not christian
    seems like its probably why isreal has so many issues

  3. #3
    beerandcandy's Avatar
    beerandcandy is offline Uber Member 100,000 Points
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    foresthill, CA
    Posts
    3,858
    any catholic popes or anyone in charge more than 85 years ago should be ignored as being a good person
    they were all bad people

  4. #4
    joejamesatou's Avatar
    joejamesatou is offline Member 2,000,000 Points
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Richardson, TX
    Posts
    231
    Quote Originally Posted by beerandcandy View Post
    any catholic popes or anyone in charge more than 85 years ago should be ignored as being a good person
    they were all bad people
    *waiting to see who takes the bait*
    Intel Core i7 930 D0 | 3.8 ghz, MSI PRO X58-E | |Corsair H50 push/pull mod | 6GB OCZ Gold DDR3 1600 mhz | 2X MSI GTS 250 1GB Twin Frozr Each FOLDING! | Asus 9600 GSO 512MB DDR3 96SP PhysX | 2x OCZ Summit 60GB HD's RAID 0 | 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 | Cooler Master ATCS 840 |


    U-verse ain't bad

  5. #5
    TSIMonster's Avatar
    TSIMonster is offline Super Member 2,000,000 Points
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Probably at your girlfriends right now...... having tea
    Posts
    1,889
    Definitely an interesting comparison, however, this is more a comparison of Judaism and Islam, right?
    New Home Build In-Progress/Temp
    Lian-Li A05B |Seasonic X650 |CM Hyper212+ HP |WD Black 640GB + WD Black 1TB
    ASUS P5E3 Pro |E8500@4.0Ghz |4GiB 1600Mhz DDR3 |XFX5850



  6. #6
    billdcat4's Avatar
    billdcat4 is offline Uber Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    a town in the US mideast
    Posts
    4,334
    While the attempted destruction of the Amalekites would be defined as god-directed genocide, it is the only such example in the Bible.

    And, I'm somewhat confused as to the concept of forgetting of the 'original violence'
    I'm quite sure that Jews do not forget the story of the Amalekites, in fact, an entire Sabbath every year is devoted to that memory.


    And, I'm not sure of the definition of this "Herem", as by a google search it appears to merely be a practice of excommunication.


    "SANDY ELITE" - Intel Sandy Bridge 2500K @ 4.5ghz - ASUS P8P67 Pro B3- 16GB G.SKILL ARES - MSI N460GTX Hawk - Fractal Define R3 Black - Seasonic X460FL Passive - 2 Samsung SSD830 128gb RAID 0 - OCZ Vertex 3 Max Iops 120G - Noctua NH-D14 - Case fans by Nexus, Noctua, Scythe - 2 23" 1080P monitors - Klipsch Promedia 2.1

    "IVY" - ASUS UX31A-DB51 Zenbook Prime - 13.3" 1080P IPS Matte - 1.7GHZ Core i5 Ivy Bridge ULV - 4gb DDR3 - 128gb SSD

  7. #7
    randomizer's Avatar
    randomizer is offline Forum Master 100,000 Points
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    8,959
    The Jews were required to keep their race pure and that is why wars against unholy nations and even the stoning of adulterers and homosexuals was condoned. However, this was only necessary under the old covenant, not the new one, because the new one (often called the covenant of grace) covered all races and not just the Jews. Of course, you'll never hear that from most Jews.

    Of course there's alot more theology in it than that but I'm not a theologian.
    i7 920 D0 | MSI X58 Pro-E | Zotac GTX 275 | 3x2GB G.Skill DDR3-1333 9-9-9-24 | Corsair HX-520 | 640GB WD Caviar Black


  8. #8
    arisythila's Avatar
    arisythila is offline User 9,000,000 Points
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Port Orchard, WA
    Posts
    4,713
    Good thing Jesus was a Jew....

  9. #9
    billdcat4's Avatar
    billdcat4 is offline Uber Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    a town in the US mideast
    Posts
    4,334
    Quote Originally Posted by randomizer View Post
    The Jews were required to keep their race pure and that is why wars against unholy nations and even the stoning of adulterers and homosexuals was condoned. However, this was only necessary under the old covenant, not the new one, because the new one (often called the covenant of grace) covered all races and not just the Jews. Of course, you'll never hear that from most Jews.

    Of course there's alot more theology in it than that but I'm not a theologian.

    Okay, im going to go through this one aspect at a time

    Purity of race= no intermarriage?
    Purity in this sense refers to ideological rather than genetic purity. This is why there is the concept of a conversion to judaism. This isn't widely encouraged, not to retain genetic purity, but ideological. The idea is that only people who understand what they are getting into and believe in it are admitted.

    Unholy Nations= idol worshipers?
    It is pretty clear by reading the old testament that worshiping idols is a no-no. What is this concept of the unholy nation?
    There are examples of cities/nations that were destroyed for being evil e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah (by god) and Amalek (unsuccessfully by man).


    Stoning of Homosexuals and Adulterers = condoned?
    In what way is execution of homosexuals and adulterers condoned in the old testament?
    Execution may require a significant amount of evidence, two witnesses of repeated transgressions and warnings which may result in an overall low rate of execution, but execution is not condoned in itself.
    An example of this law system is the saying that a (jewish) court that executed one person in 70yrs was considered " a bloody court "

    Covenant of Grace= christian
    It would be unsurprising that Jews would not believe in/acknowledge the Covenant of Grace, seeing how it is a Christian, not Jewish concept.


    Now, let me throw in another concept (hopefully one that won't be received too harshly)
    the Jewish concept of the Messiah

    What it will NOT be:
    President Shwartzman
    Mandated National Religion
    Slave Labor camps for non-jews

    What it WILL be:
    President X (not jewish)
    Less/no jews in positions of power
    Some form of welfare for jews so that they can focus on serving god
    This, due to the revelations of the messiah will be approved of by the non-Jews


    "SANDY ELITE" - Intel Sandy Bridge 2500K @ 4.5ghz - ASUS P8P67 Pro B3- 16GB G.SKILL ARES - MSI N460GTX Hawk - Fractal Define R3 Black - Seasonic X460FL Passive - 2 Samsung SSD830 128gb RAID 0 - OCZ Vertex 3 Max Iops 120G - Noctua NH-D14 - Case fans by Nexus, Noctua, Scythe - 2 23" 1080P monitors - Klipsch Promedia 2.1

    "IVY" - ASUS UX31A-DB51 Zenbook Prime - 13.3" 1080P IPS Matte - 1.7GHZ Core i5 Ivy Bridge ULV - 4gb DDR3 - 128gb SSD

  10. #10
    RKH404's Avatar
    RKH404 is offline Uber Member 500,000 Points
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    4,210
    Religion.
    Desktop:
    Core i5 2500K @ 4.4GHz / TRUE120 / 8GB DDR3 1333MHz / Z68A-G43 / Seagate 500GB 7200RPM / Fractal Define R4 / R9 290X (1150MHz) / GS600W / X-Star DP2710

  11. #11
    randomizer's Avatar
    randomizer is offline Forum Master 100,000 Points
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    8,959
    Quote Originally Posted by billdcat4 View Post
    Stoning of Homosexuals and Adulterers = condoned?
    In what way is execution of homosexuals and adulterers condoned in the old testament?
    In Leviticus 20:10 and 20:13. It's mandatory, not just condoned.
    i7 920 D0 | MSI X58 Pro-E | Zotac GTX 275 | 3x2GB G.Skill DDR3-1333 9-9-9-24 | Corsair HX-520 | 640GB WD Caviar Black


  12. #12
    billdcat4's Avatar
    billdcat4 is offline Uber Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    a town in the US mideast
    Posts
    4,334
    Quote Originally Posted by randomizer View Post
    In Leviticus 20:10 and 20:13. It's mandatory, not just condoned.
    Condone Homosexuality= YES
    Condone Execution for Homosexuality=NO

    Forgive me, but it seems that there is a mix-up somewhere here
    Mandatory means required, condoned means the opposite (roughly)


    "SANDY ELITE" - Intel Sandy Bridge 2500K @ 4.5ghz - ASUS P8P67 Pro B3- 16GB G.SKILL ARES - MSI N460GTX Hawk - Fractal Define R3 Black - Seasonic X460FL Passive - 2 Samsung SSD830 128gb RAID 0 - OCZ Vertex 3 Max Iops 120G - Noctua NH-D14 - Case fans by Nexus, Noctua, Scythe - 2 23" 1080P monitors - Klipsch Promedia 2.1

    "IVY" - ASUS UX31A-DB51 Zenbook Prime - 13.3" 1080P IPS Matte - 1.7GHZ Core i5 Ivy Bridge ULV - 4gb DDR3 - 128gb SSD

  13. #13
    CapnBFG's Avatar
    CapnBFG is offline Super Member 15,000,000 Points
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Burlington, VT
    Posts
    1,738
    Quote Originally Posted by randomizer View Post
    In Leviticus 20:10 and 20:13. It's mandatory, not just condoned.
    Quote Originally Posted by billdcat4 View Post
    Condone Homosexuality= YES
    Condone Execution for Homosexuality=NO

    Forgive me, but it seems that there is a mix-up somewhere here
    Mandatory means required, condoned means the opposite (roughly)
    +1 to Randomizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviticus 20:10
    If a man commits adultery with another's wife, that is with the wife of a fellow-countryman, both adulterer and adulteress must be put to death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviticus 20:13
    If a man has intercourse with a man as with a woman, both commit an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood be on their own heads!
    Sounds pretty mandatory to me.
    Core2Quad 9550 | ASUS P5Q Pro | 8GB DDR2-800 | HIS IceQ Turbo 6970 | SeaSonic X750 Gold | Antec P180B | Windows Vista 64-bit
    Phenom X2 7750 | MSI K9A2 Platinum | 4GB DDR2-800 | XFX Radeon 5870 |

    SeaSonic X750 Gold | Thermaltake Shark | Windows 7 64-bit
    Athlon X2 5600+ | EPoX MF570SLI | 4GB DDR2-800 | 8TB RAID 10 | Thermaltake ToughPower 700W | Apple PowerMac G5 case | TBD Linux distro
    Athlon XP 2800+ | MSI KT4V-L | 2GB DDR-333 | HIS Radeon 3850 AGP | Antec NeoPower 480W | custom painted case | currently broken
    Athlon 1.333GHz | MSI K7T266Pro | 1.4GB DDR-266 | 3dfx Voodoo 3000 PCI | generic 250W | custom Lexan SFF case | Windows 98SE
    Preshottt 3.2GHz | Gigabyte GA-945GCM | 2GB DDR2-800 | Intel GMA 950 | FSP Saga+ 450W | Systemax Tiger μATX case | Linux Mint 8


    No pun intended, no punishment. If I offended you, you needed it.

  14. #14
    billdcat4's Avatar
    billdcat4 is offline Uber Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    a town in the US mideast
    Posts
    4,334
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnBFG View Post
    +1 to Randomizer



    Sounds pretty mandatory to me.
    you realize that we aren't disagreeing?

    Bible say homo=BAD
    mandatory kill homo

    I think we ALL agree on this, right?

    If you say that the Bible CONDONES execution of homosexuals aren't you saying that the Bible says:
    NO KILL HOMO?

    Maybe i'm just reading this all wrong


    "SANDY ELITE" - Intel Sandy Bridge 2500K @ 4.5ghz - ASUS P8P67 Pro B3- 16GB G.SKILL ARES - MSI N460GTX Hawk - Fractal Define R3 Black - Seasonic X460FL Passive - 2 Samsung SSD830 128gb RAID 0 - OCZ Vertex 3 Max Iops 120G - Noctua NH-D14 - Case fans by Nexus, Noctua, Scythe - 2 23" 1080P monitors - Klipsch Promedia 2.1

    "IVY" - ASUS UX31A-DB51 Zenbook Prime - 13.3" 1080P IPS Matte - 1.7GHZ Core i5 Ivy Bridge ULV - 4gb DDR3 - 128gb SSD

  15. #15
    Afrodisiac's Avatar
    Afrodisiac is offline Uber Member 25,000 Points
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    4,632
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by billdcat4 View Post
    you realize that we aren't disagreeing?

    Bible say homo=BAD
    mandatory kill homo

    I think we ALL agree on this, right?

    If you say that the Bible CONDONES execution of homosexuals aren't you saying that the Bible says:
    NO KILL HOMO?

    Maybe i'm just reading this all wrong
    To condone is to regard something bad as acceptable or forgivable; you have the definition wrong. No need to get worked up over something as trivial as religion.

  16. #16
    CapnBFG's Avatar
    CapnBFG is offline Super Member 15,000,000 Points
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Burlington, VT
    Posts
    1,738
    Quote Originally Posted by billdcat4 View Post
    you realize that we aren't disagreeing?

    Bible say homo=BAD
    mandatory kill homo

    I think we ALL agree on this, right?
    Well from the above post it does look like we agree. However, the following statements of yours had led me to believe that you were disagreeing with Randomizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by billdcat4
    Stoning of Homosexuals and Adulterers = condoned?
    In what way is execution of homosexuals and adulterers condoned in the old testament?
    Execution may require a significant amount of evidence, two witnesses of repeated transgressions and warnings which may result in an overall low rate of execution, but execution is not condoned in itself.
    An example of this law system is the saying that a (jewish) court that executed one person in 70yrs was considered " a bloody court "
    Quote Originally Posted by billdcat4
    Condone Homosexuality= YES
    Condone Execution for Homosexuality=NO

    Forgive me, but it seems that there is a mix-up somewhere here
    Mandatory means required, condoned means the opposite (roughly)
    But I think I see the source of confusion, it appears you misunderstood the meaning of condone.

    Quote Originally Posted by billdcat4
    If you say that the Bible CONDONES execution of homosexuals aren't you saying that the Bible says:
    NO KILL HOMO?

    Maybe i'm just reading this all wrong
    No.
    Condone = allow and/or approve of.
    Saying that the Bible condones the execution of homosexuals means that it allows or approves of the act of killing homosexuals. If the Bible says killing homosexuals is mandatory (which it does) then that is a step beyond condoning it -- not only does it approve of such action, but it requires such action.

    You seem to be thinking of the antonym of condone: condemn.
    Core2Quad 9550 | ASUS P5Q Pro | 8GB DDR2-800 | HIS IceQ Turbo 6970 | SeaSonic X750 Gold | Antec P180B | Windows Vista 64-bit
    Phenom X2 7750 | MSI K9A2 Platinum | 4GB DDR2-800 | XFX Radeon 5870 |

    SeaSonic X750 Gold | Thermaltake Shark | Windows 7 64-bit
    Athlon X2 5600+ | EPoX MF570SLI | 4GB DDR2-800 | 8TB RAID 10 | Thermaltake ToughPower 700W | Apple PowerMac G5 case | TBD Linux distro
    Athlon XP 2800+ | MSI KT4V-L | 2GB DDR-333 | HIS Radeon 3850 AGP | Antec NeoPower 480W | custom painted case | currently broken
    Athlon 1.333GHz | MSI K7T266Pro | 1.4GB DDR-266 | 3dfx Voodoo 3000 PCI | generic 250W | custom Lexan SFF case | Windows 98SE
    Preshottt 3.2GHz | Gigabyte GA-945GCM | 2GB DDR2-800 | Intel GMA 950 | FSP Saga+ 450W | Systemax Tiger μATX case | Linux Mint 8


    No pun intended, no punishment. If I offended you, you needed it.

  17. #17
    billdcat4's Avatar
    billdcat4 is offline Uber Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    a town in the US mideast
    Posts
    4,334
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnBFG View Post
    Well from the above post it does look like we agree.
    You seem to be thinking of the antonym of condone: condemn.
    right, that makes sense

    its useless to compare/contrast religions
    I don't see the point at all

    I think we should work more towards getting along


    "SANDY ELITE" - Intel Sandy Bridge 2500K @ 4.5ghz - ASUS P8P67 Pro B3- 16GB G.SKILL ARES - MSI N460GTX Hawk - Fractal Define R3 Black - Seasonic X460FL Passive - 2 Samsung SSD830 128gb RAID 0 - OCZ Vertex 3 Max Iops 120G - Noctua NH-D14 - Case fans by Nexus, Noctua, Scythe - 2 23" 1080P monitors - Klipsch Promedia 2.1

    "IVY" - ASUS UX31A-DB51 Zenbook Prime - 13.3" 1080P IPS Matte - 1.7GHZ Core i5 Ivy Bridge ULV - 4gb DDR3 - 128gb SSD

  18. #18
    randomizer's Avatar
    randomizer is offline Forum Master 100,000 Points
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    8,959
    Of course as I said in my first post, executing people committing these sins is not a requirement under the new covenant. That Jesus protected an adulterous from a bunch of old self-righteous religious leaders hell bent on stoning her shows this. This doesn't mean that adultery or homosexuality is condoned in the New Testament, it just doesn't carry the death penalty.

    Unfortunately the Catholic Church has, in the past, ignored the teachings of Christ with regard to mercy and started wars and executed people for not agreeing with their doctrine. Doctrine which was of questionable biblical accuracy. These days it seems that many (but not all) modern denominations do the opposite and preach only the love of God while ignoring the other facets such as the holiness (and therefore absolute intolerance for sin) of God. And then there's the "prosperity gospel" that churches like Hillsong preach... Not that this is entirely relevant to the original topic anyway.
    i7 920 D0 | MSI X58 Pro-E | Zotac GTX 275 | 3x2GB G.Skill DDR3-1333 9-9-9-24 | Corsair HX-520 | 640GB WD Caviar Black


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •